Religious Trauma

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to the Healer's Corner podcast with your hosts, Melissa Wiles and Maria Cerna. [00:00:16] Speaker B: Hello. [00:00:17] Speaker C: Hello. [00:00:18] Speaker D: Hi. Everyone back. [00:00:21] Speaker B: We all took vacation. It was nice having a vacation and not recording and editing, I think. [00:00:26] Speaker A: But we're back. [00:00:27] Speaker B: We are back at it. Tonight we have with us, we have Alexa and we have Calavera. Because tonight's topic, religious trauma. And I'm sure some of us in the audience probably have some and what that means in spiritual healing and work. And we thought we would kind of get started if any of our, our friends would like to share some maybe personal trauma issues that you've experienced growing up and what that felt like, what that looked like, and how does that lead to where you are now? And then we're going to get into, to some of the, the scientific talking points that we have here. Worry we may not get through all of them. [00:01:11] Speaker D: I can kick us off. [00:01:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:01:16] Speaker D: I mean, mine, I'm, I'm fortunate that I did not grow up in a very devoutly religious household, but the household I did grow up in, unfortunately with a pretty abusive father figure. One of the kind of more major themes that drove me away from mainstream religion and towards kind of forging my own path was the fact that, you know, I'd be taken to this little, little small town Christian church. Because I grew up in southern Ohio, very small town, a lot of country people, a lot of just very simple folk and told that, you know, here's this all, all knowing, all powerful, all controlling, you know, male entity supposed to bring me comfort. And I'm supposed to give up the rest of my, my life and myself to this. Um, but I had that at home in the form of an abusive parent. So for me, it was a very quick, like, divide between, oh, I'm supposed to come to, you know, a church, an organized religion, to find comfort and to find security and community and relief. But I was kind of getting the same things in both environments. So it really, it didn't have the, the balming, soothing effect that a lot of organized religions can't have for some people. That was definitely a spurring on point for me as far as wanting to explore other religious options and actually figure out what it is I believed in outside of an organized religion that I could go like sit in a church for. [00:03:00] Speaker C: Well, mine was, I grew up in a household with two different type of parents. I had a parent that was for question, question, question, question, question. Then I had a parent who had to be obedient. You have to be obedient. My abilities came in very early, I used to sleepwalk and I used to talk to something that this parent could not see. So that was a no. So I kept on hearing that, it's evil. You don't do that. You didn't tell anyone that. And I did not understand that. So the other parent, when he passed on, I was stuck with a parent who I had to be obedient. So she made me go to church. I didn't want to go. I had to be quiet. I always went all the way up to the second floor, all the way in the back. That wasn't. That was a no, no. So I was stuck with that type of parent. And I used to always question before the other parent passed on. I used to question the nuns a lot. And sometimes they would have the look like, oh, no, she's going to ask. She's going to ask this, she's going to ask that. But when that parent passed on and I was stuck with the other parent, I had to be obedient. I had to fight, follow whatever that parent said. And I couldn't question anymore. I couldn't. So it's like I felt like I was stuck. I was like. It's like a little part of me kept on disintegrating, you know, because I wasn't the wild child anymore. So to the point is that I just walked away. I just walked away. And there were a lot of arguments. I didn't want to go to church. I were you. I was heard, you're gonna go to hell. You, you know, you're not being obedient. You're not following, you know, And I'm going, okay. So that was my trauma. [00:05:15] Speaker A: I was raised in a hardcore Pentecostal Christian household. Went to church on Sunday, also went to youth group on Wednesday. I was part of the youth ministry. I was in it, and I was in it deep. Part of it was I was homeschooled. So my only. My only way of socialization was the church. There was no outside, what they would call secular groups that I could interact with. And it was. I was literally born, like, in the church. Like, my parents were already in this church when I was born. So I was, like, thrown into it. And I was just told from the very beginning that, like, this is how it is. There is no other way. Like, you follow God, you live for God, you die for God, you get to heaven. Yay. But anything else outside of that is a no, no against everything. And I was also developing my gifts at a young age, too, where when I was speaking and Saying things that were outside the norm. I was told that I was cursing the family or cursing the situation. So, you know, I just be cursing ever since I was young, apparently. And yeah, and it. The same church that I dedicated my life to was the same church that threw me out. So I didn't even. I didn't even leave on my own accord. I was excommunicated. Yes. It reminds me of, like, the scene from, like, the Lion King where they, like, kick out the other lion. Like, that is exactly how I felt because I didn't do Christianity the way they wanted me to. And this was even before I started getting into the craft and everything. So I left the church and getting got kicked out basically wondering, like, how did I fail? And it took years of being outside of religion for me to realize that, like, I didn't fail. This wasn't really how it was supposed to be. And kind of learned as I went on. So the more I stepped away from Christ Christianity, the more I actually learned about Christianity. Funny enough. [00:07:50] Speaker C: Yeah, I was the same way. Is when I. When I complete completely had no one to tell me that it's okay. And I gave my. Myself permission that it's okay. I really embrace my gifts. And it led me back to Christian Christian. I have an energetic understanding of Christianity now. [00:08:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's all. [00:08:20] Speaker B: All the stories are a great segue into, you know, kind of pointing out that there's the shame, the obedience, like, all of the threats that are kind of held over your head in order to achieve happiness, fulfillment, like, you have to live for somebody else. And as I got older and was learning, I'm like, doesn't that sound like narcissism A little bit? A smidge. [00:08:43] Speaker D: You can already be happy with me. [00:08:49] Speaker B: So I. I fortunately didn't have to experience anything that would cause religious trauma. I'm the one that probably gave them trauma because it questioned everything. It would not let them blow me off to the point where, when technically confirmed Catholic, I have not been excommunicated. I backed out quietly out of the side door when nobody was looking. But for that, you know, confirmation, you had to pick your saint. And one of them made the comment of, you're gonna have to write a paper, and you're gonna have to know your saint really well, because the cardinal knows every single saint. And in my head, I was like, bet. And went into the church library, looked through all the books, found the smallest little pocket book that was beat up and tattered, and it was a book of saints, and stop. And I Stopped on Saint Euphrasia. Her family, Fred fled, I believe it was France to England or England to France because of Catholic persecution. But anyway, she was kind of like the patron saint of street walkers. And I'm like, you're it. And so when I stood up and they're like, who's your saints? And I said, euphrasia. And they're like, well, that's not a saint. I'm like, actually. And I can. In the crowd behind me and the church went quiet and they were like, just get out of here. Like, thank you. But that. That whole having to go confession for things that you may not have even done, and you have to confess sins and you have to like, constantly. But I'm like, where's the payoff? Where's the. Where's the thing, you know, that we're looking for? And technically for something nobody's experienced to even guarantee that that's what we're. We're going like, okay. And so I fortunately didn't have to worry about the shame, the excommunicate, the. The abandonment that. That you ladies probably have had to. I did say that. Hold my beer, hold my wine into wafer, hold my Christ checks while I. [00:10:46] Speaker A: Co. Find this saint. [00:10:50] Speaker B: But the, you know, all of these issues in. In like, how did you guys work through them as you started leaving in. In becoming not having to be associated with that religion anymore in that process of like, I am okay when I'm doing is okay, it is safe to be outside of that. [00:11:14] Speaker C: It took me a while. It took me a while. I didn't know it was okay because this was on. This is. Was. This was a territory that I did not know about. So I didn't know what I was doing. And actually it was my grandmother who kind of. You need to investigate that. If this is something you're interested in, you need to investigate that. And so it took me also. [00:11:43] Speaker A: There's like. [00:11:44] Speaker C: There's like a long distance from that parent. I mean, I physically had a long distance from that parent. I went from one to another state type of distance. So it took a while for me. And then once I embrace my gifts and I realized, this is okay, I'm okay. I'm okay to choose this path. This is my path, that this works for me. So it took a while. It's a process that, you know, some people, you know, have to go on their own. And I really thought I was all alone in thinking this. I did not know because I didn't have a support group. I did not know anyone else felt this way or have experienced something like this. [00:12:32] Speaker D: Yeah, the isolation is hard. The isolation is really hard. Especially when you consider that like religion and spirituality, churches and like spiritual communities like that, it's, it's kind of built into us. We're humans are nothing but more complicated apes or monkeys. We like community, we like belonging, we want to be a part of the collective, the group, because that's safety, that's, that's, you know, growth. And so I also kind of had like a major spike of just loneliness in like a religious sphere because I, growing up in a very small town, very conservative there, nobody was talking about witchcraft, paganism, Wicca, New Age, anything that didn't exist there. And so feeling like that sense of isolation and that sense of otherness and that sense of like, oh, I must be doing something wrong because there's no precedent or example for it out there. And I think that that level of loneliness really can be really harming for people in the long run because you, you don't have teachers, you don't have religious clergy, people, elders of a church to be able to kind of guide you and show you ways, to explore, ways to kind of discover your own path in your own thing. It does become very much a self taught buffet type situation of if you want your plate filled, you have to get up and go get it, you have to go find resources, you have to go dig and read and try and experiment with things. Because there wasn't that solid external locus of authority that you could kind of pin yourself on. Like a lot of modern religions get to. [00:14:15] Speaker A: Yeah, like segwaying off of that, like that feeling of like, like you said, otherness, loneliness, where like I didn't know anything else. I just knew that I'm like, I'm. I don't go to church anymore. For a long time I was still saying I was Christian. Even though I didn't attend church. I still was like, well, you know, God, right. And it wasn't until I started to slowly disconnect from the, we'll call him the normal traditional depiction of God and realizing that there was other things out there and other ways to still experience life and that there's other things after this one than just, you know, left and right. So it was walking into Goddess Elite actually a couple times and like realizing that I'm like, oh, this is more than just crystals. This is more than, there's actually like a spiritual element to this. Oh, Wicca's a thing. Never knew that that was a thing. And it was, that was like Slowly starting to find my path into spirituality. I think to this day, I still don't know what to call myself other than a witch and a spiritual person. But I feel more safe in saying that than pretending to be something that never felt really right after. I started to notice the corruption within the church, so. But, yeah, that sense of loneliness is very, very harmful. And for a while, I felt like a big disconnection with myself, with what I believed in. If the rapture happens today, I'm stuck and left behind. Like, that was the mindset I was in, was like constant fear of the unknown. And what if they were right and I've chosen the wrong path? So I would say within the past three, four years is when I've actually been like, I'm cool with being this, and I don't identify with that anymore. [00:16:19] Speaker C: Yeah, it took. It took me a while also, because I also went to other churches, because I walked away from my church and I was trying to look for it in other churches, be a part of a community. So what Alexa said, yes, you know, you long for that community. You long to just so that you matter. Because I didn't feel that with that. Well, basically because that parent, you know, also took a hold of that and made me do it. So I longed for it. I figured, well, if that didn't work out, maybe I can find my own church. And I went from church to church to church to different religion, just to be a part of something, because I felt like I needed to be a part of something. I needed to matter. I need to be a part of something. And I didn't realize that I don't have to. I can be just with me. And this is fine. Okay. This is okay for me. [00:17:22] Speaker B: This is a little off of our topic sheet, but I'm coming for you, Alexa, because you've got some. Some schooling in, some psychology stuff. Would you say the. The either leaving voluntarily or being thrown out? Like, would you say that you guys would have gone through, like, the stages of grief in a way, because there is separation? [00:17:46] Speaker D: Absolutely. Like, when you. Because you have to think about the purpose of religion and spirituality, Like I said, it's community building. It's belonging. Not only does it confer kind of the group mentality of, you know, an us versus them, it confers safety. It confers, you know, power and numbers, but it provides you this sense of, like, comfort and understanding and reason in a world that inherently does not make sense. Religion and spirituality is a very human thing. It makes sense. It makes sense that we develop this all over the world and that ancient peoples gravitated towards this idea of spirituality and religious building and iconography. So it's kind of. I've always viewed religion as like, kind of an inherent part of the human experience. You have an experience with it at some point in time. So leaving the church of. Or leaving your religion of your own choice, that becomes that kind of sensation of. And I imagine it's the difference between having a limb that's slowly rotting. You're aware and sometimes you're like, oh, I just bandage it, or I put. I put a little bit of salv on it, or I, you know, I wash it up and I clean it. But it gets worse and it gets worse and it gets worse and the ache gets worse and it hurts more. And you finally reach a point where you're like, I have to cut this off. I have to amputate this part of myself. I can't do this anymore. And then you have to kind of deal with that sudden grief of, I've severed this and now I get to, you know, figure out what life is like without this. And then conversely, if you are someone who was removed from your church and kind of asked to leave or told to leave, it's. It's an amputation. It's a sudden amputation of now you just don't have that hand. Deal with it. And so grief is a very. Grief's a phenomenal, like psychological. Do I love grief. To be able to deal with that kind of separation, that kind of loss of community, self comfort, having a conversation with your higher power, having again, just people that you belong to, people that, you know that when you start talking about the things spiritually that you believe in are just kind of nodding their head, going, yeah, I agree. Me too. You know, that's something that makes sense to me. So having that sense of isolation and that sense of kind of grief that has to happen for you is a very natural and it's actually really healthy thing to do. So I definitely feel like regardless of how you exit pursued by bear, it's. Grief is. Grief is healthy. [00:20:11] Speaker A: It's normal. [00:20:12] Speaker C: Can it move into depression also? I mean, can a person experience depress a period of time or a little bit longer? [00:20:22] Speaker D: Oh, absolutely. And I do want to repreface for everybody. Like I said, I have degrees in psychology and biological science. I do not have letters after my name. So please do not take anything I say as a diagnostic criteria for yourself. But I. Depression is one of those things that like having those traumatic experiences, especially if, like, I'LL use. If you know, Amelia's Calavera's experience like you belonged to a very insular little unit. This was, this was the group. It was an us versus them. And them is a problem and you are part of us. And suddenly having to be kind of like plucked up and out of that environment and dropped away from the U.S. suddenly you. That doesn't mean you automatically belong to the them. You're on your own because you're not one of the. You're not one of the core of the church anymore, but you don't think you fit in with the rest of the. Whoever the others are. You're kind of in your own little isolated island and you don't have that support. You don't have that comfort of communication, of being able to kind of reach out to people about just mundane, normal topics and things like that. So depression, anxiety, obsessive compulsive issues, anything like that is a massively common trend with people dealing with religious trauma as they're going through life because of how much of their life it impacts, rather than just like, oh, it's my spirituality, it doesn't impact my day to day job. Like, yeah, it does. So it impacts all of you. [00:21:49] Speaker B: Now I want to say, especially for like Calavera and ask how was the home life? Right, because your family was still a part of them. But here you are like that trauma from the church is now got to be part two of trauma, like at home, on top of it. And you can't really, depending on age, like escape that, you know. [00:22:14] Speaker A: Yeah, so you're correct. I still had to go there. So it was on top of being exiled out. It was, well, we still go to church, so sorry you don't have friends anymore if that sucks. You're still going to this exact same environment that you are dead to. So having these people that used to like treat you like family literally walk right by you and it was, it was hard. And then feeling like every interaction that you had with was like where you went up to them and it was like, it felt forced and it felt you could cut like whatever they want to call it. It was energy and how it was, was, it was negative. And you could cut that negative energy and that like that pushing back like with a knife. So there was really. I had, it was like the wound kept getting opened every Sunday, even though I stopped going on Wednesdays, where majority of the youth kids were at that point. Sundays it was still, we're going to service. So every Sunday that wound got cut open. Again. And I felt more and more alone. Even though I was, you know, still going to church and those people were still there, but I was still being treated like an outcast. And exactly how Alexa said where it was like, you're. You're not part of the the them. You're kind of in this weird in between. And to me, that was like, I would have rather been pushed out into the them than stay in this weird spot of, like, where do I go now? Because these guys are bad, right? And you guys are the good guys, but you're not letting me in. But I also don't know how to do that. So, like, where am I? And having to deal with that, like, every single. Every single Sunday was, like, really tough. And I think I dealt with that until I was old enough to make the decision for myself. My parents had moved, and I was like, I am never stepping foot in there ever again. [00:24:24] Speaker B: How many, like, months or years did you have to keep being drugged there? Right. Because you were a minor, you didn't have a choice matter. [00:24:33] Speaker A: It was probably. It was probably an extra year or two until I could finally make the decision to just choose not to go anymore, you know? And then eventually, like, you know, parents had their own things going on, so they started to go to the church less and less. So it was. They were slowly on their way out with the move and with other things going on, but probably about a year and a half of constantly being dragged out every Sunday, if not every other Sunday. Yeah, Yuck. [00:25:07] Speaker B: Just yuck. [00:25:09] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:25:11] Speaker B: That's where, like, hearing your story, and I'm like, if I were in that church, even as an adult, like, this is where I would be a bad patron of that church, because I'm like, that's a little kid you just threw out. Like, I'm not going to be mean to that little kid or young person. Right, because you weren't little little. You were, like, in your teens. [00:25:29] Speaker A: Yeah, in teens is. [00:25:33] Speaker B: But you're speaking. [00:25:34] Speaker D: You're speaking from a place of love right now, Melissa. So ironically, one of my favorite things about one of my favorite, like, justifications for human behavior, honestly, comes from a Catholic nun, which I think is hilarious. It's the idea that your actions as a human are either made out of love or made out of fear. You right now sitting there saying, like, oh, I would never do that to a child. Well, yeah, because you. You understand the compassion and the humanity that is inherent to being a responsible adult and being a fellow human to your other people. So of course you. You would have the ability to act out of love. I imagine in, you know, all of our situations, the adults that were around us were very much acting out of fear because they had the same amount of fear of the unknown. They don't understand the world at large. They, they have things like illnesses and, you know, accidents, traumatic events that they're trying to justify and make sense of in the world. And they're turning to religion and the church and God to help it make sense. So inherently they're already acting out of fear. And I think a lot of the more organized religions are more fear based, which I think is an interesting tactic, rather than actual love based of just, hey, as long as you're a good person, great, crushing it. When you see a lot of dogma getting struck into religious trauma of if you do X, then bad and you are bad. It's not that you did a bad thing, you are bad. [00:27:10] Speaker A: I mean, it has its own name. It's fire and brimstone. Like that is literally what you, you know, the type of church and ministry that it was is. It's fire and brimstone. There is no love and light. It was the fear of upsetting this higher power or this fear of not having a place to go when you die. And you could die at any second, or God could come back at any second. So you have to be ready by every second of every day. Otherwise eternal damnation. And so it was definitely like touching on that, like the feeling fear based instead of the love based of, you know, it's always, it's love thy neighbor until it's that close community of people and you stepped outside of that close community. [00:28:02] Speaker D: It's conditional. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I was gonna say that's a good segue into the conditionality, if that's a word of a lot of organized religion, regardless. And, and I don't want this to come off as like we are purposely being negative or hateful to any sort of religion. These are personal experiences that you ladies have experience. But that, that condition that you have to live under and in a way be made to fear that if you don't perform at this specific level, like, you will never be happy, you will never have joy, you'll never be fulfilled. And when you die, you're going to suffer even greater circumstances. Circumstances. And that's a lot of stress, right, to carry on every second of every day. And that's where I kind of struggled with a lot of that myself. And I questioned everything. So I'm like, that is just impossible to do. And that whole free Will and forgiveness. And I'm like, really? He created and gave us free will, but he can't forgive us or we're banished forever. Like, I can't imagine never forgiving my kid for like, oh, you had sex before marriage? To hell with you. Like, seriously, like, dude, like, did you have protection if she knocked out? Like, there's a forgiveness and a guidance and help to learn not to do that again. This is where I struggled a lot with that condition that was always set in some of the churches I was in. And I say some because military brat. We were going through some other churches, and I will say my parents were very lenient that I was allowed to go visit different churches. And I remember thinking, like, why do we sound like we're in constant mourning when we're praising. But the church that's going on right now, like, they are happy, they are rocking out and they're, they're all over. Like, I'd rather go over here than if we're going to Christ, because we're not. We're all falling asleep in the pew unless we have to stand up, sit down, you know, Neil, stand up again. Peace be with you. So, and with you as well. The condition, conditions that, that can be put upon, you know, in, in religion. And then did you, any of you guys, kind of like, as you were going through your healing, feel kind of like a relief then when that condition was removed, at least to where you're like, well, at least now I can experience and not feel this. I'm going to burn in hell lifting. [00:30:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:29] Speaker C: For me, yeah. I came to the conclusion that I can still believe in the great divine. And I do not call, I call them great divine, but I can also appreciate the fact that I, I went through this and I, I need to do the healing on myself before I can help anyone else. So it just, it got to a place where I, I'm okay and I gave myself permission to be okay to accept whatever it is that had happened. And now that I know, what am I going to do to correct this? [00:31:10] Speaker D: I think for me, getting away from the, the anger of. And again, kind of again, going back to that whole idea of like going through the stages of grief when you, when you leave, like an organized religion or spirituality that you've kind of built a good chunk of your life on. I knew that my kind of healing and kind of path a little bit solidified more for me when I realized I, I stopped being so angry at other people for their religion and I stopped being so belligerent. About people knowing my beliefs all of a sudden that it was so important that, like, if we were talking about religion, that I was the first voice to be like, oh, God doesn't exist. This is why you're wrong. Like, I went through that phase really hard because that was me externalizing, trying to justify what I was mentally going through. And it was that idea of, again, if I could talk to somebody and I could convince you that I'm right, that I know I'm right. [00:32:09] Speaker B: It's. [00:32:10] Speaker D: It's that idea of, like, we. And there's a lot of. There's a lot of that in religion. I've noticed that we. They speak with this idea that you're supposed to agree with me, and that's how I'm convincing you that you're actually part of this. And that's how I'm right. Because if you nod your head and agree with me, I'm right. And I think a lot of especially pagan and kind of more new age paths, you get away from that. You get away from the idea of right and wrong and being. Having to have someone else externally agree with you to justify your own beliefs. [00:32:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:50] Speaker A: It's actually, like, cool that you said that because it's. It's different because, like, you know, people will come in, you know, to the store, and it's, well, you know, am I doing this right? And I'm like, do you believe it's right? Like, is that how you. How you want to do this? You know, there is no, you know, repercussion if you don't say this word. And being able to break out of that and being like, you know, there's no. There's no rule book. Like, literally that bible being that rule book and being able to escape that and going into the mindset of if you feel like it's right and if it morally fits your. Your moral compass, then it's right. And that was probably like, the most freeing thing other than going and constantly being on the teeter totter of, you know, is this against or like or with the. The bible or God? So definitely, like, that sense of individuality was what ultimately made me feel relief. [00:34:03] Speaker D: Maria, if you don't mind me asking a little bit more of a personal question towards you. [00:34:08] Speaker A: Sure. [00:34:08] Speaker D: Because you can correct me if I'm wrong. You. You grew up on the Hawaiian islands. Is that correct? [00:34:15] Speaker C: Yes. [00:34:16] Speaker D: Okay. Was there. I feel like there's there's this massive overlooked part of u. S. History where a lot of the Christianization came in and kind of wiped out a lot of the more indigenous and natural religious and spiritual practices there was there that cultural element that you were also facing of like oh, but this is just what we do now versus kind of. [00:34:42] Speaker C: Yes. [00:34:43] Speaker D: Being able to pull from that more truly cultural kind of roots type. I, as a white person, I have no context for this. I would love to hear your, your opinion on that. [00:34:51] Speaker C: Yes. In the cult, in the Hawaiian culture and actually any culture that is indigenous, I'm pretty sure they have gone through this. Like the Native American Indians have gone through this too where they wanted to just stop that, you know, the language and the beliefs and system. I, I went through that also. And a lot of when I was growing up, a lot of the kahunas, the Hawaiian shamans, they are the like a priest or akumus, they, they still wasn't full forward out and about. You couldn't find them. You know, you, you had to literally. And they, they're very, very cautious. They were very protective of their culture, of the religion where you know, we were very protected of that. We didn't just willfully, you know, give information to an outsider because we didn't know what they were to going to. [00:35:52] Speaker D: Do with. [00:35:54] Speaker C: Was just so bad of what had happened when the, when the people came in and just took hold of the islands and anything that was part of the natives, it was, you don't practice that, you know, in public, you don't talk about it. [00:36:14] Speaker B: So. [00:36:15] Speaker C: And I'm pretty sure that there were some people who were outsiders who were very, they want, just wanting to learn. But we couldn't, we couldn't just do it outright. We couldn't just give it to them. We couldn't just invite them in. So there was an Arab of protection also. My family walked away from that and I still, I still had family who were practicing shamans and they walked away from that and they went into the more fundamental religion. So in, in the islands you will see people who follow certain fundamental religions. There's more than one that, that's been followed down there. But even to this day it's a little bit better now you can find schools that will teach you the native ways. In the islands. It's a little bit not as, oh, we have to keep this a secret, we have to keep this a hush hush because we don't know what these people are going to do with this. So does that answer your question? [00:37:21] Speaker D: Thank you for. Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. I was just really curious about that. [00:37:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:26] Speaker C: So there's an era of protection that we had to go through, you know, we had to preserve as much as we can because a lot of when, when the outside of the people from the outside came into the islands, a lot of people just took things and went underground, you know, just to keep the, preserve the culture, preserve the teachings. Because we just didn't know what was going to happen or how they wouldn't, how they wouldn't treat it. [00:37:57] Speaker A: So. [00:37:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Was it like on the mainland with the natives, like if they were caught practicing or speaking, they were severely punished. Was their punishment punishment for your culture as well? [00:38:09] Speaker C: If it's record, yes, it was punishment. And we didn't. They didn't do what they did to the Native American Indians where they separated the children to make them Americanize or, you know, going this way versus the old way. That wasn't, that didn't happen. Thank God. That didn't happen. Children were not separated from their family to teach them the Christian way, to teach them to live the Christian way, you know, but a lot of the things, I mean there were a great deal of family who did went to the fundamental religion who attended. But they still practice the culture, just still practice. But it wasn't in public. [00:39:09] Speaker B: Now I think this is just kind of coming to mind. Everybody's out. We're all happy where we're currently at. But do any of you still occasionally, even if it's rare, miss that feeling of being back there, of where you started in the fun, the big religion box? No, that was. [00:39:33] Speaker C: No. I can say yes. No, no. Because you, you get to see once, once you start finding your own path and you realize no one is going to hear around, you know, whispering. [00:39:47] Speaker D: That's not right. [00:39:48] Speaker C: You can't do that. So it's just the freedom. So no, I don't miss it at all. [00:39:57] Speaker D: Yeah, the freedom Port is definitely like, I, I feel more empowered, I feel more self aware. I feel more in tune with what I kind of inherently know to be true. And what I feel is true because I stepped away from an organized religion where there was kind of a defined hierarchy of power and there were these defined rules and regulations and you know, basically checklist of here's all the good things you should be doing, here's all the bad things you should be doing. And then sitting in an environment and watching all these other adults. Basically just the immediate 180 hypocritical actions of oh, we're in church and we love our neighbor at oh God. But like then bad mouthing the poor people sitting next to because they're at A lower socioeconomic class. It's like, wait a minute. [00:40:52] Speaker A: Like, I'm. [00:40:52] Speaker D: I'm confused here. Like, I don't. I don't miss that. I liked. I do like the chaos of that it came from. It was a buffet. If I wanted my plate filled, I had to go find. I had to go find things to put on my plate. No. Nobody was going to hand it to me. Nobody was going to give it to me. [00:41:05] Speaker B: I had to. [00:41:06] Speaker A: I had to work for it a little bit. [00:41:07] Speaker D: And that makes it feel a lot more valid, I think, in my opinion. [00:41:13] Speaker A: All that. [00:41:20] Speaker B: Caliber is like, y' all. [00:41:24] Speaker A: For me. [00:41:29] Speaker B: Let me see here. We had a couple comments from our friends. I. I know at one point, Alexa, you were talking, and I kind of snickered, and I'm like, hope she doesn't think I was laughing at what you were saying, because you were very serious and very valid. Samantha first says, okay, Melissa, laugh at my trauma. [00:41:47] Speaker D: Laugh at my trauma. [00:41:50] Speaker A: You did not suffer enough. [00:41:54] Speaker B: Is when you're hanging out in a biker bar and feel more accepted and safe than you do at church. But then when she said, what made me snicker a little bit was like, I got told not to come back to my aunt's church after I called the communion Jesus chips. And then anybody old enough to. To remember Dane cooks. One of his first things. He has a whole bit about Christ in the Catholic Church and, like, the Christ checks in the bowl. And I love that. [00:42:21] Speaker A: Must have seen that way, because she. [00:42:22] Speaker B: Was like, start your way the holy. And I'm like, yep. By Chris Cat. It's like being lgbt. When I was a kid, I was playing with my Barbies outside and made my Barbies kiss and was told by my neighbor that was sinful, I was going to hell. And, like, that's a whole other trauma part that we haven't even gotten into is the whole, love your neighbor, including LGBTQ plus. And I think I may have forgotten, but why can't you. Why can't you love them? [00:42:52] Speaker C: And. [00:42:53] Speaker B: And you say you do, but you are complete to them when you walk out of this building right here, hateful. And if. If. If your God is so divine and perfect, how did he make a mistake? Can you explain that to me? Because he created that. [00:43:10] Speaker D: Well, I think that's. That's the fundamental difference between believing in a God versus believing a church. Because of the reading and research I have done about the Christian God, Jesus seems all right with me. He. He hung out with the prostitutes and the lepers and actually preached tolerance and had some pretty valid things to say. I think I can get behind that. But when you see the church all of a sudden kind of stepping in and using it as that platform of fear mongering and control. And that's where I feel like a lot of people have religion. So when I fe. I feel like when I meet Christians that are like that or say that like, like, oh, yes, you know, I love my neighbor, except the queers next door. Like you're worshiping the church. I don't think you're actually worshiping a deity because the church preaches that while this deity is saying something completely different. And you, you haven't been able to reconcile those things enough in your own mind to feel comfortable and confident and safe in your own religion. [00:44:16] Speaker B: Good point, good point. Because honestly, I think all of the big deities and sometimes that, that thought of like, it's all one or two with just different names depending on where in the world you are. But I feel like their, their biggest message is like, don't be a dick to one another. Well, through like the game of telephone, by the time it gets down here, to some people, that message is so distorted and becomes hateful sometimes, you know, and people start acting in direct opposition of what their, their text that they're supposed to be living by says to do. And it's always confounded me, like, can you not see this picture right here that you are a part of? As far as I'm like, maybe I was more traumatic to them than I allowed them to. Cause I don't get you guys. Chris says growing up next to a Native American reservation, they did practice their culture on the rest, but off the reservation they had white names, they. And they spoke both English and their language. Some had adopted the Catholicism but kept their beliefs. And depending on the part, right, because I know in the Oklahoma, Arkansas type area, some of those native languages are in such scarcity and in danger of being lost that they are begging people to come to free classes to learn those languages and, and keep them alive. So at one point while I was living there, I thought about taking those classes because my son, he's the last in his bloodline through his dad to be able to get the card. And you know, and I'm like, how cool is that? And both he and his dad are like. [00:45:57] Speaker A: Ah. [00:46:01] Speaker B: But, you know, if any of our friends have any stories you'd like to share, these wonderful ladies joining me have shared some pretty profound examples of religious trauma. What they have personally experienced, how they have overcome it, and safe to say, Since I know all three of you to say you. All three of you are now on. On the pagan side of the fence, which not Christian is automatically deemed pagan. Even Buddhism, which some people are like, oh, that is food. Like, yeah, technically that would fall under the paganism, but most people think paganism is, you know, witchcraft. And, you know. [00:46:39] Speaker D: And I know a lot of craft Christians. Marietta, being from, like, the southern Ohio, the Appalachian belt, there's a lot of craft Christians I have crossed path with that. They're doing some interesting folklore type magic, but, oh, you know, their gifts come from God. I'm like, wherever you need to feel good about that, it's nice. But I'm here to tell you, you are doing magic that's again, if you want to call it again, messages from God instead of messages from spirit or whatever. Like, it's. It's interesting how even people that are on kind of more of a pagan leaning path will still kind of weave kind of the more Christian, like, tenements into it. [00:47:21] Speaker B: There are some. Some churches, including Catholicism, that are becoming more lenient and accepting of the wider spiritual paths and aren't immediately going, oh, my God, you're going to hell. They're like, oh, okay. So we light candles in church for, you know, God, and you like them for cool. You know, it's not that immediate condemnation. And I will say, Maria, you know, this from the. The shamanism path that we're on. Like, when the Spaniards came and was forcing Catholicism, like, the little Pacos were like, okay, and they blended the two. And in the way that the maces are set up, if Jesus was standing upright and face planted down, like the left side, feminine side is the heart side and the right, you know, and, you know, so it's like they kind of incorporated. They're like, this works for us and that works for you. Cool. What happens if we blend them together? So, you know, kind of a weaving. [00:48:18] Speaker D: The Christianization of Europe for a lot of, like the. The Celtic people, like, that was. It was a very strategic type of blending there, which I think kind of runs in direct opposition to how I think Calavera, your kind of church, was very much fire and brimstone. It was very much. I've always found it fascinating that there are pockets of religion that you're on some sort of holy war. You are God's warriors. You are. You are fighting some sort of existential battle against something. And how I know that, I've just never been able to kind of really wrap my head around that whole idea of, like, here's this religion that's supposed to be teaching, you know, tolerance and mindfulness and but then all of a sudden is turning around and like, well, you're a warrior for God. You have to be willing to fight and you have to be willing to do these things. Like, I can't imagine that pressure on top of just regular day to day life pressure of oh, and by the way, you're a warrior now for your deity. [00:49:18] Speaker B: What were you fighting like? Did they ever say exactly what that was? [00:49:24] Speaker A: You were just always like fighting to pull as many people into the army of God as possible. You were always fighting the secular temptations and this was all for the glory of God. So that was my reward at the end was the glory of God and God going, good job and you don't go to hell, but you could if you mess up in 10 minutes from now. [00:50:00] Speaker B: So. [00:50:03] Speaker A: It, that was what it constantly was. It was, it was converting. And, and this is where things get kind of interesting because in the Bible and what I kind of started to develop as I kind of started to get away from Christianity was God just showed kindness. Like it was from, we'll say 90% of the time showed kindness. And by showing kindness he was bringing people to the higher power, the enlightenment. But how it was warped in the church was you just be annoying and you spread the word of God and you know, it's like, it's just God, God, God. As if that's going to change someone's mind as to what they believe in. And if they don't like that, then they're, that, that just sucks for them and they're burning in hell. It wasn't love, it was conversion. And I don't know what tangent I was basically going on with that, but that was the constant battle that, that you were fighting. [00:51:14] Speaker B: Did you get a toaster for every five people you converted? Like what was. [00:51:20] Speaker D: Like, it's like an MLM scheme. Like you get more fluent, you get a higher place. [00:51:26] Speaker A: My punch card. Yeah, like there was, it was weird that you say that though because there is like bragging rights as to like I brought my friend to church. There was always like the Bring your friends. Bring your friends. You know, if you bring your friend, we'll do this. So it's weird that you mentioned that because there is, there was kind of like that incentive. [00:51:49] Speaker D: So peer pressure incentive. [00:51:51] Speaker A: Yes. Bring your friends to church. See, you know, make sure we're doing this sermon next week. Bring your friends. [00:51:57] Speaker B: Did they look down upon anybody who didn't bring a friend? That particular week or, you know, was there automatic shame you didn't do this? Not. [00:52:06] Speaker A: Not entirely. I, I do think that they realized it wasn't feasible for a lot of people. And you know, like, I, like, you know, I stated earlier, like, when you're. I didn't have half the time, I didn't have friends outside of the church. And they kept it that way and they wanted it that way. And this is like strictly like my church. I know there's a lot of churches out there where they're a lot more open and like how Melissa said, these guys are having a good time. This place is really sad. It was kind of like that where it was, you know, the more people we keep in this circle, the better. And so that's okay if you don't have any friends outside of the church, because we're all you need anyway. [00:52:51] Speaker B: Am I correct to say that sounds again, like narcissism in a way? [00:52:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:55] Speaker B: I asked the degree person in that. [00:52:57] Speaker A: Box over there, like, I mean, my whole getting kicked out was because it gets real weird. But it was basically, I liked a boy in the church. God, I liked a boy in the church. And this church was really weird because they liked, they liked men being in the church because it was a more woman run church. There was probably, it was probably, you know, 70% women. The rest were men. So they wanted more men. They were willing to lose a couple girls if it meant being able to bring in the men. So, yeah, they were. They found out that we had feelings for each other. You have a bunch of teenagers that are. Have raging hormones in one room every Wednesday, and you force them to be with each other and you don't let them be friends with anybody outside of the church. But you also can't. You can't. This is sinful, correct? [00:53:55] Speaker D: You have to leave room for Jesus, right? [00:53:57] Speaker A: Leave room for Jesus. And ultimately they were like, oh, no. So you gotta go. Because we like this boy and we're gonna keep him here. And the one thing I will never forget is I was taken to Taco Bell on Wednesday night after church. And the youth pastor at the time told me that she was like, I'm trying to save him from you. And that is when I had the epiphany of. I've been here since 1996, the year I was born, and it still wasn't good enough. And that was when I was like. [00:54:40] Speaker D: I. Yeah, that's a hell of a chalupa to have to swallow on your Wednesday. [00:54:46] Speaker A: Well, first off, she told me this While I'm in the. We were. We didn't even go inside yet. So I'm crying inside the Taco Bell and then it's forced to. I was forced to interact with everybody after being told that you're not good enough. And so I was outside. I was like, I don't want to cry in front of everyone. So I sat outside and then it was here. Come inside. Because it was walk of shame. Yeah. [00:55:10] Speaker B: Like I'm just going to walk home instead. F you guys. [00:55:13] Speaker A: Like. Yeah. [00:55:15] Speaker B: I am changing my social dynamic right now. [00:55:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:18] Speaker B: My terms. I don't have a degree, but there are so many things wrong. [00:55:27] Speaker A: Correct. [00:55:30] Speaker D: I. I have bachelor's degrees. I don't have doctor degrees. There's a ton. [00:55:38] Speaker C: I don't have a degree in. And that is just so wrong to do that to a child and force them to go in with other children. There's something wrong with that. [00:55:52] Speaker A: Really Psychological and very psychologically damaged. Damaged. [00:55:58] Speaker B: There was an adult that were in with the other kids in the Taco Bell, Right? [00:56:02] Speaker A: Correct. [00:56:03] Speaker B: And so I'm sure while you were outside being told that you're evil and bad and not good enough that they have to save him from you. The other adults in there going, so Sierra's evil. And you know, here's what's being told to her. [00:56:15] Speaker A: Yes. Because I walk inside and how come nobody wants to talk to me? And me. So funny enough, there is a lot of people that come to Goddess Elite that actually used to attend this specific church and you don't point them out to me. Oh, I should, I should. [00:56:34] Speaker B: I. I would like to have fun, little on the spot conversations. Nothing completely confidential. [00:56:39] Speaker A: But there's a reason why they're at Goddess Elite. So it's really interesting because one of them came up to me and he said this perfectly because we were just talking about religious trauma and he was like, they taught you the people to hate at that church. It wasn't the people to love. It was the people to hate. And I became on that list of people to hate. [00:57:06] Speaker D: And if you think about it from a purely psychological standpoint, that is an excellent way to run a campaign of getting followers, of getting people to buy into whatever it is you're selling. If you give people a common enough enemy, a common enough thing to be against, it's. It's reinforcing that kind of group and like family and community mentality that humans have. [00:57:30] Speaker A: If we want. [00:57:30] Speaker D: Want to belong to something so badly, we want to have community and support because that means safety. That means that we're going to survive. And a lot of churches have recognized that and play on that kind of psychological game of us versus them, of. Well, with the warmth and love of the church. You never have to worry about that because we've got you. Unlike those people over there. Like that psychological divide in the church, which is why, again, I always make the distinction between there are people that believe in a God versus people that believe in a church, because the church does that. [00:58:03] Speaker A: I don't. [00:58:03] Speaker D: I don't think a deity does that. I don't. I would like to believe a deity doesn't do that. But when you get to more of the organized religions, you see a lot of those psychological warfare type tactics being used very successfully to get people to conform, to be afraid to buy into whatever it is that you're selling. And that's where you kind of get that definite slippery slope of problems. Because as soon as you've bought into it and you've become complacent in it, it's boiling the frog little by little. They get to push, they get to push, they get to push, they get to push. And then, yeah, there's an adult and a Taco Bell making a teenager cry because you're not good enough for him, and we need to save him from your, you know, sinful. Like, that's obscene, that's abhorrent to do to a child, and yet here's a consenting adult doing it. [00:58:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Um, you know, with the. The friend that I have been talking about who we, you know, we talked about the. The religious trauma without giving too much of his information away, talking about the lgbtq, he became lgbtq, and while he was within the church, and it was. We found out, okay, so little gay boy, you have to stay in the sound booth because we can't even let you know that you go to the church now. So that's this. And it was that type of mentality, and it was, did you hear this about this person? And did you hear this about this person? And then it was again, teaching, you know, who to disassociate with because you're not safe if you associate with them. Because if you associate with them, we're gonna pull away. And you don't want to be alone, do you? No. So don't talk to them, don't interact with them, and keep going. [00:59:53] Speaker B: Ah, yeah. [00:59:57] Speaker D: Isolation tactic is a very valid tactic to get people to buy into whatever it is you. And that's why I think. I think religious trauma is a very. Almost a universal experience at this point. Like, we all have some degree of conferred trauma. It's one of the more easy examples of being able to kind of realize in a situation where, oh, am I a part of an us, or am I a part of a them? And realizing kind of where you stand in relation to those things, and when you realize you're kind of neither, it's. It's that extremely isolating and kind of terrifying moment of going, well, I don't know really what I believe or what I am or what I'm going to. To do, but I know what I'm not. And not that, and I'm not really this. But where does that leave you? You know? What. What do you do from there? Where do you go from there? [01:00:48] Speaker B: I'm going to throw you ladies under the bus. That if any of our local friends who may be experiencing any sort of religious trauma and you're feeling lost and you're feeling alone and you want to talk to somebody, we're all at the store at some point. You know, feel free to come in. Feel free to, you know, stop in and just meet new people and know that there's a safety net. I think the only people we judge are. Are they dicks? Like, do they harm children? We're gonna judge them really hard. [01:01:29] Speaker D: I sound. I found Goddess Elite as a store because I was so desperate for community. I took an Intro to Tarot class despite knowing Tarot, being pretty fluent in it at that point. Like, I knew. I knew what I was doing, but I needed someone to talk to so badly that when I found your guys's shop and I realized you were taking classes, my brain went, oh, good, I can meet other people. And that's how I got my foot in the door with you all. And that you always did. I needed community, and I sought it out, and I found it there. So I. I do. I do applaud the. The ecosystem that is Goddess Elite. As far as having so many different practitioners from so many different backgrounds in there, being able to kind of lean in and offer their view, their experiences to each other and kind of you. We're like signposts. If whatever you believe in, somebody somewhere can point you in the direction of the person or the book or the thing or whatever it is you want. [01:02:24] Speaker B: Mm, yeah, it's. And. And we're all. I mean, some of us, and probably more you guys than me, right? Because I see all of you at some point, but some of you guys are like passing ships in the night, depending on the event and the days you read. But you Know, everybody's friendly, everybody talks. Everybody, you know, so to be like, hey, I have a question about this. And, you know, if Calavera is like, you know, I'm not up on tarot, but Alexa is. But, you know, seven is, like, not gonna bullshit you. Not trying to wing it out. Like, we will send you who it needs to be. And if you truly stump us, that's where, like, you know what? Give me your name and number. Let me see what I can find out. [01:03:05] Speaker A: Because now I want to know, because. [01:03:07] Speaker D: Now I have to crowdsource information. [01:03:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, you found a hole in my bag of tricks, and now I have to patch that and find that resource, because I'm sure you're not the only one who has that question. But, you know, caliber, you're there almost as much as I am because you do all my social media stuff. So you'll see us there. Most. Maria, you're probably second next couple times a month, second and third Saturday. Alexa, we get you for the fairs, and at least one Saturday every now and then, you pop in to say hi and visit and announce it's a surprise. [01:03:45] Speaker D: It's usually when you've gotten, like, a new inventory of cards, and you're like, I got some new supplies. And I'm like, great. I just got paid. No, I'm all over social media, though, and I do. I do love when people reach out. And like I said, even if you just. I've had tarot sessions where somebody comes in and hands me a ticket, it's like, this isn't a terror reading. You just need someone to talk to, Pretend. And it's like, it's. It's a good. Like I said, the ecosystem at Goddess is very good. [01:04:12] Speaker B: Yeah. If push comes to shove, you know, you can send a message to the Goddess Leap Facebook page or email and be like, hey, I. I feel like I resonate with Alexa. I feel like I resonate, you know, and we will get information over so you two can be in contact without a middleman. Like, gatekeeping, that communication. That's where it's like, okay. And that's where I reach out to Alexa. Like, there's this person who would like to talk to you. Do you have time? Are you good? Here's their info. And I respond back like, we just gave your information to Alexa. She will be contacting you when she gets off alert and we back out. That is not my business to be all up in it, quite frankly. I don't have time to know. I'm busy doing other things. But if you're local and you, you need to meet new people and, and understand that a lot of people in the pagan community have local left organized Christian based religions for one reason or another. And there is an understanding that we know about. Please feel free, come in and talk and meet and, and it's okay. You don't have to buy something just because you walked in the door. We have a lot of people that come in to just walk around. Like, I had a crappy day at work and I needed to decompress. Okay, cool. Let me know if you need something. I'm putting candles in inventory. [01:05:28] Speaker D: Like it's just dimes. [01:05:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:32] Speaker B: Yep. [01:05:33] Speaker A: So get in. [01:05:34] Speaker B: Spread it when you leave. Like spread the goodness when you, when you get home, you know. But Chris says, you see these mega churches do a lot of this kind of manipulation even more than other churches. I have lost a really good friend to a megachurch and I can see the brainwashing that has been done over the last couple years. Yeah. [01:05:59] Speaker D: It's hard losing people you had genuine connections with when you realize that on a spiritual level you just don't align anymore. [01:06:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like that could even be a part 2. Talking about losing family and friends not because they deemed you unworthy, but when one of you is growing and that separation because you're growing in different paths in that mourning of those loved ones because you're just not on that same path anymore. And there, there's not any anger or hate. It's just the. We can't share this because we're in spots now. And while that can be like, good, we're both growing. It's kind of like, oh, but yeah, not here. Doing this with me, I call it. [01:06:43] Speaker A: It's like mourning somebody who's still alive is like one of the most painful mornings, which I really have. [01:06:49] Speaker B: But. Well, thank you guys for joining us and thank you ladies for, for sharing stories and letting us in on some pretty raw moments in life and how that made you feel. And I'm glad that you're all doing way much better now that you have come out on the other side of that experience. At least I'm, I'm assuming you have, you're. You're over on the dark side with us, over here with the cookies, you know, the evilness. [01:07:14] Speaker C: It's more fun here with the cookies and the wine and. [01:07:20] Speaker B: Maybe, maybe I. [01:07:21] Speaker A: Should start a new church. [01:07:22] Speaker B: It's called don't be a dick. [01:07:25] Speaker A: Recruitment. [01:07:26] Speaker B: You know, for how many people you bring in that, that feel safe over. [01:07:30] Speaker A: Here, do what you want get a punch card. Yay, punch card. Y. [01:07:35] Speaker B: We'll get some hats embroidered or something. [01:07:41] Speaker C: And bragging rights. We have to have bragging rights. [01:07:45] Speaker A: We have the sinner hats. And, like, I kept being pulled to saying this, but, like, the final touch of, like, when we get the comments on Facebook and on Instagram that are like, you need to find God and all these, you know, they preach us Bible verses. I'm like, you have to be you. It's interesting how so many people don't know, like, who they're talking to. And I think some people think we were just born into this. And it's usually 90% of the time, not the case. So something that we have already learned and been through and reread over again as if it's new news. So that's a little side bit that I'm like, we probably know more than you. [01:08:37] Speaker D: You speak of. [01:08:38] Speaker B: Thanks for joining, everybody, and thank you ladies again for coming and sharing. And once more, if you are in the area, be it local or passing through, and you would like to meet new people who may be able to understand and relate to any sort of religious trauma that you may be experiencing or have experienced and feel like you. [01:08:56] Speaker A: Just need a little more. [01:08:58] Speaker B: More health, working through it, please stop in. The only day you can come is Monday because we're all at home in our pajamas. So rest of the week, fair game to come in, say hello, and meet new people. But we hope you can join us again for the next episode of the Healer's Corner. And please have a wonderful new year. Bye, guys. [01:09:20] Speaker A: Bye. Thank you for listening to the the Healer's Corner podcast. Join us again soon.